In this episode of “Lykken on Leadership,” David Lykken is joined by leadership coaches Paul Waldrop and J.A. Dava, who share their rich experiences and insights from the mortgage industry. They share their journeys and experiences in the industry, as well as their passion for coaching and training. They discuss the importance of leadership and the five pillars of well-being: spirituality, relational, physical, vocational, and philanthropic. They also talk about the leaders who have inspired them and the impact of mentorship. In this conversation, David, Paul, and J.A. discuss the importance of leadership and the qualities that make a great leader. They share personal stories of individuals who have impacted their lives and helped shape them as leaders. They also discuss the challenges that leaders face today, such as loyalty and setting clear goals. The conversation emphasizes the importance of personal integrity, approachability, and the ability to invest in others. The speakers provide advice for aspiring leaders, including starting small, getting their own lives in order, and finding mentors. They recommend resources such as the book ‘The Go-Giver’ and ‘The Extraordinary Leader.’
Paul Waldrop, Co-founder,
Sr. Coach & Consultant
30+ year veteran in mortgage industry. Sales & leadership coach for 20+ years. Executive leader in mortgage industry. Entrepreneur & business owner for 10+ years. Husband of 30 years & proud dad of 2 daughters. Coffee aficionado & backwoods enthusiast. Paul has a passion for understanding the goals and dreams of those he encounters and is relentless about helping them set a course to fulfill them.
J.A. Dava, Co-founder,
Sr. Coach & Consultant
30+ year veteran in mortgage industry. Sales & leadership coach for 20+ years. Executive leader in mortgage industry. Entrepreneur & business owner for 10+ years. Husband of 30 years & proud dad of 2 daughters. Coffee aficionado & backwoods enthusiast. Paul has a passion for understanding the goals and dreams of those he encounters and is relentless about helping them set a course to fulfill them.
[David] Listeners excited to have Paul and J.A joining us on this episode of Lykken on Leadership. These are two leaders, their coaches in the business and I am excited. They’re like my brothers from another mother. I’ve just recently met them, but man, what a great relationship we have developed very quickly. Paul and J.A thank you for joining me here today.
[Paul] Thank you, David. It’s an honor. We’ve been looking forward to this and you’re right. We’ve only known each other a short time, but it feels like a lifetime, right?
[David] I was just listening to a podcast at lunch about that. There’s something about that when you meet somebody, I think we may understand that there is a greater sense that. Maybe there’s greater connectivity and broader reason why we have that sense. It was real interesting, but anyway, good to have you here. Now, what’s really interesting, both of you guys have a good amount of time in the mortgage industry, but I think for those that do not know you, I’d like to start with how long you’ve been in the industry and how you get started in your journey in mortgage.
[Paul] Yeah. So I’ve been in the mortgage business for over 30 years and I’ve done nothing else. Okay. I got started actually when I was still in college and when I got started, I used that to pay my way through school. I guess I’m one of the few that don’t have student loads and paid my way through school, but it stuck with me and from there, I just had a history of doing so many different things in the mortgage space. Like a lot of people, you do back office type of things, you do processing, closing, post closing. Got into secondary marketing, which was really something that I loved and then went into production and owns my own company here in Atlanta and did that for several years. And then, as things happen, the crisis hit I actually started looking at getting out of the business, but you know what? I still believed in the mortgage business. I still believed in the people. I still believed in the purpose. And so I went to work for a very large bank, a national bank, got into leadership, went into executive leadership, and then worked for the federal home loan bank for a bit and then just got into the whole coaching and consulting side of the business, at the. Latter part of my career and it’s just been beautiful, working with my partner J.A who is a brother, who I felt like we’ve been together our entire lives. So J.A go ahead.
[J.A] Oh, no, that’s for sure. Paul. Thank you so much for that. And David, thank you for having us. And truly an honor to be in front of you guys. My history really started. I’m 1 of those guys that really didn’t plan to be in the mortgage industry, in the banking industry. I was a dead broke actor from Los Angeles. I spent a couple of years trying to be that but when I came home where my parents were, I was a temp. I actually started in the temp world and one of the things that I landed was Bank One. And I remember watching the loan officers, the processors, everybody, but the loan officers were really more intriguing to me because they just carried a really good sense about themselves. And so I wanted to be that, then I met my bride there while I was still a temp, right? And so I was locked in. I was locked in. So I either try to do something there. So I went into the processing world. And then I went into a little bit of the underwriting world, and then within a year’s time, I was in a loan officers world and that really began my career. And that would have been over 30 years ago as well. And I ran into a system, I was being coached at that time to be a purchase oriented loan officer. That was a really big deal and pretty much had to build your business around that. And I ran into something technologically and it was a company called Homebuyers Marketing way back when. I was their guinea pig. I didn’t realize I was, I bought something that was still in concept and I was blessed enough to make it work. Where the ownership decided that I could travel the country and go share that information and go teach realtors and loan officers and that started my real passion for coaching and training and I never had to look back. I did have to make a change though David, because I had to make the change into the real estate market when the speaking engagements became stronger. And so I was an independent contractor for that company. And then I became an agent so I could control my time more and was able to use the same system to be successful in the loan officers world and be successful in the real estate world. But my passion for the last 22 years plus has been about coaching and training loan officers and agents alike.
[David] What is the foundation or the passion that you have in coaching and training?
[J.A] I remember asking my pastor at one point. I’m going to throw it all in and I’m going to go over to this grace seminary and just become a pastor. That’s what I’d like to do. That’s my passion. And I remember him looking at me and he goes, why? And I go, why? I said, because I want to go change some lives, because do you know how many theologians are out there right now, who don’t know how to apply it into everyday life? You’re in the middle of where we can’t get to. You’re in business. Stay there, administer to them. And so ever since then, I just remember when I, whenever I’ve had the privilege of being in front of clients like that, one of the things that would always happen is that vocationally I could work with them. Because I had the product. I had all the knowledge. And so I was coaching them on vocational, but David had never ended there, because some people are limited in their success. because of the fact that other things are not right. And so I call them well beings, right? And so I’ve always known from the very, very get go that there’s other things besides vocational success. There’s the spiritual side, there’s the relational side, the physical side, as well as the philanthropical side. And it never failed when I was on the field and it really just resonated. His own words came back to me. It was not unusual to end up in prayer with somebody. Because while we’re working vocationally, something else surfaces, you find out about their marriage, they find out about what’s going on in their life, cancer, whatever it may be. And we just found ourselves in prayer that way. Talk about just building up the passion
[David] When you have a passion to help people and you realize your own limitations and you’re gonna have to go beyond yourself at some point. Pretty quickly. I learned that over my 25 years of coaching and consulting. So true. Paul, you and J.A. met, how did that happen? And if I recall your story correctly, he came to you for coaching. Is that correct? you were his coach?
[Paul] J.A and I met at our previous company that was actually a mortgage training company that was known nationally. It was a great organization, served the mortgage industry very well, and that was my foray into more of the training, development and coaching side of the business once I left the whole professional, leadership side of it. And with there and I worked there for six years. It was during that time that J.A. also came on board and I was actually his leader.
[David] Okay. So you guys work together.
[J.A] Yeah, he was my boss. He was my boss.
[David] Oh, he was. Okay. All right. I love the Cunnighams. That’s who you worked with. Then it’s a great group of people. I just love them as a husband and wife and celebrate their success. So then you guys made the decision, Hey, we need a team together. What did you see as the opportunity for the two of you to coming together and going out on your own? They do a great job but each of us have a calling, so to speak. So how would you define the calling that you saw? or the opportunity that you saw is another way to say it.
[Paul] Yeah. For me and what was interesting is J.A. and I had very similar visions that actually came together after we started exploring it and they were identical. It wasn’t born with, it was given to us. We didn’t create it ourselves, right? It was given to us as believers. That’s just where our world view and our mindset comes from. But what we found and really, there is such great training out there, but it’s just in such a short compressed period of time. And a lot of times you could read a book, you could get information, you can go to a class, you can go to a webinar and you can get a lot of great information. You can get inspired and you can have that. I want to fired up. But what often happens is left to yourself, life happens and things happen and just slowly erodes. And so that enthusiasm and that fire that started just begins to wane. If there’s no one there to put more logs on it. And for me, I’m just wired in that sense that when I see somebody where they are, and they trust me with where they want to go. There’s just something inside of me, David, that compels me to want to help. Okay. And so when I just saw that need starting to accumulate in so many different people about where they are and where they want to go, but they just didn’t have that roadmap, they didn’t have the dots to follow. I just feel that I’ve been gifted and blessed and I humbly say that and this is not within me. This was given to me, that mindset to be able to help them go further down the road with a little bit more of a prescription and a conscription where they can follow that and as I began to just articulate that a little bit more with my leaders in my previous company and then sharing that with J.A. come to find out he had such a similar vision and passion of what he wanted to do, and it changed us or changed me from a job to more of a calling, and it just seemed to be, this is the right time for me to do what I feel like I was born to do.
[David] Yeah, that’s a great phrase going from a job to a calling, J.A. comment to that. Put more construct around that cause I’m not sure everyone’s going to resonate with anyone just normally because a job’s a job, a calling is, what’s that about?
[J.A] It is, you know what, I once asked somebody, I said, Hey, listen what do you think? I feel I’m being called and then someone said. And I remember them turning around to me and saying, it’s one thing to be called. It’s another thing to be chosen. And so that was really interesting to me. But as far as I’m concerned, it is a job and what’s really interesting. But what Paul is talking about, David, is that our company was birth in May of 2023. this is not the time. In fact, we had friends that were telling us, this is not the time to do this. And I did listen to that and at the same time to Cunningham’s, like you said, you brought up their names. They’re great people, right? In fact we were there to build a coaching program on top of training at the same time and then what we really realized that because of the way the market is and their focus was going to be changing, the whole coaching side of it went to the floor and eventually was getting swept under the rug. And when we decided to approach Casey and say, Hey, Casey we absolutely believe that we want to go ahead and continue this focus on this coaching. Do you mind if we go ahead and just take what we have, and then we’re going to go and start our own company and that’s when she was actually very gracious. She said, sure. Why don’t you stick around, build it here. And then when you guys are ready to go, you can go. And so we left.
[David] What a great attitude. Yeah. I think there’s an old saying says what we try to hold on to, we lose. Why not just help enable? Because I know their purpose is so much bigger than just. They have a real calling on their lives to be, make a difference in this industry as well. I want to get into the topic of leadership because what you’re talking about is, your call, but if no one’s following, you got to wonder how am I doing on my calling? and that’s really what we’re getting. So calling leadership really fit nicely together. I want to come back. I’m going to start with you. Paul is, how would you define leadership?
[Paul] Yeah. So for me a lot of my leadership experience was felt with the pressure of looking up and satisfying those that I was responsible to. Okay. and so when that happened, there just seems to be an internal disconnect within myself. If I’m always looking up, I’m not looking down and I think the true essence of leadership is, You’ve got a responsibility to the people that are underneath you, and there’s going to be those that you directly influence that report to you, and then maybe those that are on the periphery that they’re indirect regardless of whoever I was in connection with, I feel that leadership is all about influence and also setting the stage to help them become successful in their role and I think the mark of a true leader is when the people that you’re leading and the people that you’re influencing, if you have a part in them becoming successful, that to me is the essence of success of what a true leader is.
[J.A] I’m going to get biblical again. But I really want to be able to, because I truly believe that in leadership, there has to be an understanding that’s an investment. It’s a life investment if I can call it that. If you want to call my Bible heroes, there are 3 people that I always try to identify when it comes to leadership and that is Paul Barnabas and Timothy. Those are the people, and I really truly believe that a great leader, you should always have a mentor and that is the pulse of their lives and those are the people that you’ve asked to be able to call you and to be able to call you out even right. And that’s a great leader that somebody that’s open to that. And that you’ve actually asked the pulse of your life to give them the license to be able to do that with you, because they know where you’re headed and you want to give them the license to say you’re heading the wrong way. Turn. Then there’s that other person who’s really the Barnabas is of life and that’s my best description of that are my peers, my friends who I decide to hang out with is gonna make a huge difference in leadership because I can’t be one thing here and another thing here. What I do in darkness, I should be able to do in light. Correct. And so who I hang out with, believe it or not, even if I’m not present, they end up becoming leaders, because of my positioning, right? And so choosing the right peers and being able to be a part of that becomes very important. But the other thing that really makes leaders, I believe, is the Timothy’s of life. Where are you investing all of the blessings you’ve received? to be on people that really need it, right? The people that you want to be able to lift up. And so there is, there’s that Paul that Barnabas and that Timothy. And so when I look at leaders, one of the first questions I asked him, and I think I asked Paul the same question. Who is your Paul? That’s hard because Paul is Paul, but who’s your Paul?Because way too many times, David, I find out that when I ask that question, they’ll say something like I listened to this podcast or I read Josh McDowell’s books, or I do this. I do that. Those books can’t talk back to you. They won’t call you up when you’re heading in the wrong direction.
[David] The points of interaction is so much of a communication is not just speaking. It’s listening and being heard and a lot of that. One of the things I want to interject at this point is you guys have five pillars that I really love and if you guys could talk to that, because that’s something that really is a hallmark to your coaching business. What are those five pillars and why do they exist?
[Paul] I think we all have a sense of them, but when I met J.A and we were talking specifically about these pillars, that’s when it became much more codified or much more of a central focus. The way I’m going to introduce this, is that while we’re in business and we’re doing the coaching and we’re doing the consulting and we’re doing the influencing and we’re helping people grow, there’s a thing that happens to all of us and it’s called life. And when you think about it, when life happens, it happens in one of these areas and if you’re not willing to go there and willing to be present with someone when life happens to them, I think you lose an enormous opportunity for influence, for care, for helping somebody navigate through it. Because as much as you want to avoid it, You can’t avoid when things happen in your life. You’ve just got to work through it and we just feel that is just such an important part of what we do. But as far as what those well beings are, J.A. you’re masterful at the way you present them. So I wanted to set it up.
[J.A.] Thank you, Paul. Yeah. And I alluded to it earlier that when I worked for other companies and this is not disparaging other companies, it’s just, it wasn’t our focus, right? Just way too many times where I had certain opportunities. I wasn’t allowed to. for all the right reasons, politically correct, incorrect, whatever you want to call it. It’s all of the above. But honestly, it’s just, it wasn’t my company and I have to honor that. And so one of the things that I continue to see is really the Five pillars of life, which is what I had mentioned earlier, and I do put it in that order, because in life, when I have had the privilege of coaching on more of the life side of things, I just think that there are five very important things. And I do put it in this order. It’s in my order, not necessarily anybody else’s, but I believe that spirituality. Spiritual well, being is the first. And it’s immediately followed by relational well being, family and friends and how are you doing there? then your physical well being is extremely important. right? and then vocational and that’s really interesting whenever I get to that fourth point, which is vocational because some people put that in front. That’s the most important thing and I put it in the fourth place because I don’t believe, I truly believe from a joyful, holistic success. Vocational success can bring you all the money in the world and everything else, great things. But if you’re missing in the other three there’s something missing
[David] You are empty. Yeah, you’re a huge, yeah very, there’s an emptiness there. And you’re wondering why am I not feeling fulfilled? That’s so true. And the fifth one?
[J.A] And the fifth one is the philanthropic whole being, which is really what are you going to do with the blessings that you’ve gotten? And so that all five of those become very important. It’s like the Paul, Barnabas and Timothy. They’re all important in the holistic ness of somebody’s success. I believe.
[David] Yeah. And I think philanthropic is so much bigger than just making writing big checks and doing so it’s so much more of that. I think we, that’s certainly an element of it, but there’s so much more to it. I want to get in some examples that you guys use in you’re consulting when you’re thinking about an amazing leader that inspired you. Tell me who it is some leaders that come to mind that just really nail it for you.
[Paul] Yeah. So actually I have the privilege of still being in a direct relationship and I’m still frequently conversing with this individual. His name is Steve Stahl and he has just been an icon just in the industry. I met him while I was working for Casey at Xinnix. But what makes him so special is first of all, He is just phenomenal in those five well being is just very well plugged in, starting with the spiritual. But he’s also been endowed with a very rich experience in leadership at a multinational, a global company, actually in the food services and just has such a rich experience of working for difficult leaders. Working with difficult direct reports, having to figure things out, having to influence, having to make things work, but just sitting under him and listening to him. He has such a beautiful way of not just giving me an answer. But getting me to think about what the right pathway is, right? Because he’s not just going to tell me what to do, but he’s going to give me options that I need to consider that actually will impact each of the well beings and you can’t get any more rich than that, because you could make what you think is the right decision in 1 area, but it has a negative impact in the other. So when you think more holistically and someone like that is speaking into your life, helping you work through it when it’s time to focus on the relationship, that becomes the most important thing. If it’s spiritual, that needs to become the most important thing. And so on through the well being, he’s just been that kind of a leader. Going back further, I’ve just had incredible leaders that just came two levels down just to invest in me and just spend time with me and sometimes their time, made such a huge impact. And I just remember that working at a very large bank when I could just talk and have that kind of authenticity, it just changed my life.
[David] One of the things you said, two levels down. That means people up two levels above you came down and is it a lot of people think it’s all about spending a lot of time. I think it’s more about how impactful you are with the time you have. Thoughts and how they impacted you. Those two levels down, they came down and invested some time in your life.
[Paul] Yeah, first of all, taking the initiative. I didn’t take the initiative. It came to me. And so that was first of all, I saw as an investment. The second thing was, I just came very prepared when I knew the meeting was going to take place. So I asked some very direct questions and what happened is I was given the insight of what I needed to do to help the team that reported to me to be successful and be in an alignment. So I think it was just a very honest. They cared about me. They also helped me to keep in mind, some of the resources that I had, including that executive leader. And so you’re right. It wasn’t just about time, but it was experience. It was wisdom, and it was also direction, but also support and having support from powerful leaders, makes all the difference in the world because that gives you the freedom to, I think, take initiative and do things that might be risky, knowing that you’ve got somebody that’s got your back. That was huge.
[David] J.A, give us some examples of people who inspired you.
[J.A] I’ll just give you one, because and I’m going to try and shorten the story as quickly as I possibly can. But let me just preface it by saying that, I’m one of these people who’s just blessed to be walking because I didn’t really have a good fatherly influence. I moved here from the Philippines. My mom actually came all the way this way, because of an abusive situation, life and death type of situation. And my moving here after six years of being separated from her. She had actually married another man, who was a Jewish Orthodox man, who, when I moved to this country, talk about a cultural change, not only from being a Roman Catholic Filipino, eating the kind of foods that we do to all of a sudden moving to Minnesota, to Tundra and literally becoming an Orthodox Jew, where I can’t eat anything that’s not kosher. And so that lifestyle change and everything became such a big problem. But again, and that was a mental abuse situation. So I never really had a good fatherly influence and then it was an Orthodox Jew told us about senior in high school and I remember just being there and that father decided that we weren’t good enough as a Jewish family because we weren’t blood. So he left after all, and so in my senior year, here I am, and my mom, by the way, had taken a promotion in Atlanta in my senior year. I wasn’t about to move. So I lived in this house by myself by the way to finish off my senior year. And she let me do that. She didn’t sell the house. So that I could graduate from there. And in that graduation, only imagine, okay, David, and your audience. Imagine this, I’m one of the minorities in the school. I was privileged enough to be going to a really good school in Minneapolis. But, I’m a minority in the school and I had a very troubled home, right? And I had a car that I drove around with a hanger holding onto my bumper. And I ended up falling in right? Back then I thought I was in love, but falling in love with my first non Jewish girlfriend, so to speak and she happens to be the prominent daughter of probably one of the most influential families in Minneapolis at that time. He was a top fire litigation attorney in Minneapolis. Talk about just everything that you would be intimidated about and I thought, man, this guy, he’s going to hate me and all of that. And I tell you what, it was completely the opposite way. And I’ll share his name. His name is James Federally and I’ll never, ever forget this man. He’s with the Lord now. But do you know what happened David? here I’m thinking, I’m a minority. I’m all of this broken family living by himself. Only daughter. And instead of just talking her out of it, he fully embraced me and he’s the job who led me to Christ. And it was because of his actions and his love and so much of that philanthropical side, so much of that caring about people. I’m willing to go where most people aren’t willing to go. It’s because this man did that and he took me on vacations. He took me under his arms. He embraced me and he had no reason to do that at all. In fact, he should have been concerned. I certainly would if I think about my upbringing and if my also my only daughter is about to date somebody who’s troubled, I would, but instead of doing that, he embraced me, love me. That’s a great hero to me.
[David] Yeah, man, no kidding. When you look at people who will look beyond circumstances and pour into you and give you a chance. I just love those. Who are some people who have tremendously impacted your career and helped you as a leader, become a leader that you guys are in the marketplace.
[J.A] I’ll take that one first Paul, and it actually is somebody who probably doesn’t realize that I would probably put him in this category. But gentlemen, my name was Steve Paulsten and had his own faults and everything else and I love this man. But the thing is that he changed the trajectory of my life. When I became that guinea pig that I was saying earlier, that was when I bought this system, thinking that it was already a working product, not realizing that I was really the concept and despite himself, right despite himself, and he’s a believer, but despite himself. And the product itself, it worked. Yeah. And I think that’s just a Lord’s blessing, but anyways, it literally changed my life. I went from being a fairly good, comfortable vocationalist to all of a sudden finding my passion in the whole coaching world and everything else, I can’t say enough about what this gentleman did for me by giving me the opportunity. I’ve worked with him for about 20 years and just really changed. So absolutely.
[Paul] Yeah I think a couple of people were very influential back at the big bank that I worked at, my manager, my leader that I reported to, his name was Charlie. He had passed away a few years back, but Charlie was tough. He was tough on me, at least. Having a tough leader is not a bad thing. It makes you toughen up in the right areas. And there were very high standards. And so there were certain things that I needed to work out and I needed to mature in and Charlie was very tough on me in the beginning and was very much, set these standards that. I’ll be honest with you. I had some sleepless nights. I had to dig in and I had to buck up and I appreciated that because up into that point, I hadn’t had the large group of direct and indirect reports that I had at that point. There was a time where I had seven leaders coming to me and 140 indirect reports. That’s a fairly significant territory. That’s a good size. And so there were several things that I needed to be looking at, but he helped me navigate through that and there was a pivotal point in time where I needed to be very honest with him. He was very honest with me and it just seemed like the dials turned and it fit. It fit very well, and that was a big key. So, I appreciated his willingness to let me speak and lead up, and I appreciated his ability to lead down into my life and help me. The second one. And I’m going to give her kudos for this is Casey who was my executive leader in my previous job, beautiful spirit. But what I appreciated about her most were two things. Number one is her undying belief in me. Okay, so that was amazing. The second thing was she gave me the freedom and empowered me to be the type of leader that I was that was ingrained to me and that at my experience. Let me be and she just empowered me to do that. And to me, those were two gifts that I think were just endearing. And I will never, ever forget that. And I’ll always be very grateful to her for that.
[David] Yeah. It’s amazing when someone believes in you and when someone believes in you more than you probably believe in yourself at that time and at least certain aspects of it. It can be so life changing. What are some of the biggest challenges that leaders are facing today? And we could write a volume of books on this, but what are some of the top things you guys see as the biggest challenges facing leaders?
[J.A] You know what? Loyalty is something that’s I think a struggle, loyalty and I mean that from both sides of it, right?
[David] Loyalty as a boss and loyalty as an employee.
[J.A] That’s correct. Yeah and when I’m talking about the employees, it’s the loyalty because when the market is where it is right now, people are looking, they’re just and the trust is broken, right? And you can almost do so many organizations. It is. Oh, my gosh, and they can’t do anything right. They’re not even looking at the kind of expenditures that it’s going to take to continue to keep that running. But when I’m talking about from a boss’s loyalty, it becomes their own world and they stop they might, start looking at people, but they’re not really thinking about their people and honestly, it’s because they’re still working their own stresses and all the things that are happening in the market today, they’re working on their own struggles and they forget about the people that they’re really serving. And some of the best leaders, and you and I actually met because of one of the greatest, I think greatest leaders in the mortgage industry and David Hopper, but outside of that there’s an awful lot of people that just don’t as David put it, and this is probably the way I’m going to answer it. He says, you got to walk in there first and foremost with the word love and that word love, by the way, it’s a huge thing because it is from a leader’s perspective. You got to be able to invest that into those people and I think that’s one of the biggest struggles from that side of it. And people are, I don’t know, in so many different ways, unlovable.
[David] This really goes into another question I meant to ask earlier is about. The characteristic or traits that go into a leader, because when you have someone, as you’re talking about, J.A, who is developing that there’s characteristics that need to be present. What would you say those are?
[J.A] I think approachability is a major deal. You got to be approachable and you’ve got to be that type of person that actually wants to invest in people, cares about not just what they bring to the table, but what you can actually do to help their current situation. And so I think it’s your investment, way too many people are not willing to invest not only in their employees, but even sometimes it’s in their friendships. There’s just no investments. And so approachability and the ability to invest and to find that to be a very important part of who they are, are 2 characteristics that I think people should have. They should have approachability. As well as the ability to reach out and invest in other people’s lives.
[David] Paul, if you could get into an answer to the question as it relates to some of the challenges we’re facing, and then what are the characteristics that you really respect in a true leader?
[Paul] Yeah, I’m gonna start with the second part first and then I’ll get to the challenges. But, I think it all starts with character and that could be a little nebulous. When you think of ethics and character and integrity, I’m a good guy. I have integrity. I’ve got character, but where I think it shows up as a misalignment in very subtle ways, is when there are certain things that you need to say. And it takes courage to say it, but you don’t, or you sugar coat it, or you work around it, or you avoid it, or you let imbalances happen where, someone who’s doing well in one area, they get a pass on other areas that other people are held accountable to and so all of a sudden, people start getting either micromanaged because they not measuring up or other people get passes. That becomes a little bit of a character or an integrity issue and it just creates, I think, a little bit of a toxic environment that people don’t realize. So when it comes to that character, it’s treating people fairly with the same standards and it’s making sure that you’re even across the board. There’s also the interpersonal skills because you’re not there to be people’s buddy. If you’re a leader, you can be friendly, don’t get me wrong. And you can have relationships, but you’ve got to have very good interpersonal skills. You’ve got to have technical skills in the areas of the people that you’re leading and oftentimes you’re going to have to understand when changes are there, you’re going to have to be very good at change management, and you’re going to have those skill sets that manage all of it with that vision and aligning goals. And so that all becomes very important. What ends up happening is you become good in one area. But to be a really effective leader, there’s really multiple areas that you have to be good at, not just one area, that’s so important. And I think sometimes that’s easy to miss.
[David] What do you say to the person that says, it’s better to be really good at one thing than try to be good at many things. I’m questioning the wisdom. I understand the principle there, but when you look at that to be a really good leader, you really have to be quite versatile. At least it would seem to me. I’d love to get your thoughts on that.
[Paul] Here’s an example. You might be very good at understanding the metrics and the outcomes that the organization has measured. But if you’re very poor in your interpersonal skills, what ends up happening is you’re focusing on metrics, but you’re not able to effectively lead and coach individuals to perform at the level that they’re to meet those metrics satisfactorily. You become punitive. You become more of a punisher. You’re not helping people to achieve and so what ends up happening is you might have great people that have all that potential, but you’re focused so much on the outcomes that you’re not able to lead them up. You’re not helping them to improve. So that’s an example of being very good technically on the metrics. But not so good on the interpersonal.
[David] Yeah, I think it’s so important. Yeah. J.A, do you want to add anything to that?
[J.A] Yeah. You know what? I had a loan officer once tell me that one of the best things he does for his business is he’s a one trick pony. Okay. And this is somebody who’s 218 million producer. He’s a one trick pony. And I went, I’m one trick pony. What does that mean? Because everybody that I meet for the first time, they all hear nothing but what I have put my life into, which is VA loans. And I volunteer for all sorts of different veteran events and I do all sorts of things and I contribute part of my commissions towards that. And I said, so Rick, that’s all you do. He goes, no, not at all. He goes, that is what they will remember me. That’s their first impression of me. Because what I want them to know eventually is the fullness of everything that I know. And so they’ll remember me because of that. They’ll give me an opportunity to get deeper with them on that. But then I kill him with kindness. I kill him with great service. I kill him with this next thing, and they go, wow. Do you know other things besides me? Oh, I’m an expert in all of them. And I think a leader is the same way. I think there has to be that first impression. And I do believe it has to do with how you are towards others, how you care about somebody first and foremost. And then from there, all the other characteristics that you’re talking about, David, it all has to surface. And I think you do have to be multi-faceted and strong in a lot of different areas. If you’re going to lead, absolutely.
[David] When you look at mistakes that are being made out there, what are some common mistakes that you would encourage people to avoid as leaders?
[Paul] There is a lack of really being able to set very clear goals. Okay. It’s more of there’s a sense of what needs to be done, but there’s not a really good skill set. In setting the goals, but setting the goals is not enough. Setting a goal is an outcome. It’s not even an activity. So, where I see the biggest gap with leaders is being able to set very clear, well-defined goals and the tactical actions that need to take place consistently in order to meet those goals. That to me is one of the biggest shortcomings that I’ve observed.
[J.A] Yeah, to me, it’s being able to reach down and be actually asking what is going on. There’s an awful lot of leaders that feel they’ve been there, done that. I know what I need to be doing. And they’re really not listening. Listen, this market’s totally different. This is not 2008. And I hear a lot of leaders say, this is like 2008. No, it’s not at all. Yes, only because we suffer as an industry, but this is not 2008 and so being able to say that I’ve experienced 2008. So I know what I’m doing. I think a tragic mistake and your front line people, they know what they’re going up against. They know what they’re lacking and so by just asking that question, and then here’s the hardest part. And you said it earlier, David. Listen to them and then do and react based on that.
[David] It’s so true that being able to listen and a lot of the principles that you talk about in your five pillars all contribute to this as well as the mistakes, because they’re every one of those are failing it, what are the things that you’re seeing derailing leaders today?
[J.A] Personal integrity.I think there’s just way too much concern upon how they look. There’s an awful lot I believe in that, but, I always try to look for the positive. The other ones, though, it’s really been and Paul and I’ve run into this a couple of times. There’s been some tremendous leaders that have come back into our lives that I probably would have said I will never call on that guy because I knew his past experience and how humbling it is when they all of a sudden call you up and then you invest just a bit of time. You realize they’ve changed as well. So there’s a density. So for sure.
[Paul] That’s a really great question. Some of the biggest issues or downfalls? I would agree with J.A about the integrity issue. I also think it’s just a lack of vision. A lack of confidence in going in the direction, this is direction I need to go in. There’s some self-doubt, there’s some doubt that this is the way to go. And then the tactics on how to get there. It’s just been a big gap.
[David] Let’s talk to the people that are wanting to get into leadership, what would be some advice you would give someone seeking to go into leadership position for the first time? Someone starting out, what’s the most important thing, Paul?
[Paul] Start small, so sometimes you could be thrown into the deep end of the pool. Be careful about that because there are stages of development in your career, but also stages of development within a leader. And it really becomes building blocks, an executive leader just doesn’t come out of the gate and they’re an executive leader. There are certain skills that you learn by just simply showing up and being a frontline employee and as you get to the next level, you start taking on smaller projects that begin to flex some of your leadership skills. Get used to what it feels like. Get used to the pressure. Get used to the responsibility, but do it in small droves and as you become successful, take on a little bit more. You’ve got to work your way through some challenging situations through challenging people to understand what it feels like, what you need to do. Where you need to address certain things, but it also you need time to understand where your strengths are, because so many times we tried to fix our weaknesses. You need to exploit your strengths and realize what are the minimum number of strengths that I need to be a really effective leader. You begin to see those gaps. Fix the gaps, fix the fatal flaws of what you need to go to the next level of leadership. It’s a progressive journey. It’s not just a show up and I’ve arrived. So think of it as a progression, start small, develop those skills and build upon them. And I would say, find a mentor who is down the road on where you want to be. Let them speak into your life, but take the initiative and ask really good questions. Do your homework, ask good questions of what you need to know.
[David] That’s so good. J.A, how would you respond?
[J.A] I would just answer that by saying, get your house in order first.
[David] It’s hard to lead. It’s hard to lead when your own life’s a mess.
[J.A] Exactly. And that’s that. And it goes back in a full circle, honestly, with all five of those pillars. I really, truly investigate the five areas of your life and just take a good look at it. And, because. Don’t go into leadership. If your marriage is already in trouble, if your family’s in trouble, if you’re financially, so down and out that you’ll do anything to try and make that happen to save your family, things like that, if you’re physically not well, the kind of stress that can be put on the leader just because you’re not in great health could cause you to make the wrong decision for that matter. And by the way, on the spiritual side of things, and there’s got to be something greater than you. The day that we become our own God is really one of the biggest problems. And so getting your house in order has all of those things that needs to come into place. And then to follow that up I would invest in what others take a look at what your leadership scope is going to be. And make sure that you’re educating yourself on all the different parts and components that you’re going to have to lead. So you do know, and then being able to give them that balance of those ficw pillars becomes very as well. Yeah
[Paul] I don’t have anything to add other than what I had mentioned before, but I agree. If you are not whole and doing well in the personal areas of your life, the stresses of leadership are going to expose where you’re suffering and it’s going to put a lot of pressure and you’re just going to be myopic. And as a leader, you have to be flowing out and investing in others and you’ve got to have that inner wholeness in order to do that.
[David] Yeah, it’s so true. As far as resources for someone that’s wanted to get into leadership and grow in their leadership skills. First of all, I’m going to say, Be sure to check out your website. So let’s start there. What is your website? What is the resources that you have on your website, J.A?
[J.A] So first of all, our name is Latreia and what Latreia stands for sacred duty. Okay. And Latreia spelled L A T R E I A. So latreiacoaching.com. And as far as our resources concerned, Anyone that comes in would be able to start to see really how we invest back into you. If you choose to allow us to serve you in so many different ways, we’re a consult consulting company, even outside of the mortgage industry. But at the same time in the mortgage industry our passion spans all the way from leadership all the way down to the loan officers getting started all the way to the most elites. But if I can tell you that one of the resources as a leader a newer book that I’ve highly recommend is go giver. It’s a tremendous book and it’s a book that covers so many little areas of what leadership is about and it’s done in a story form. And Bob Berg, I believe is the author of that. Yeah. And but I would highly recommend that book for sure. End of 12 week year, which is the other one our company tends to run on. We are on a 12 week year type of a campaign and all of our coaches as well.
[David] Yeah. That’s so good. Paul, what resource would you recommend?
[Paul] Having a mentor is so key and finding someone that can speak into your life from more of a classic written resource. The extraordinary leader is a classic. It’s been around for a while, but it’s got a lot of data to support it and it’s got some surprises in there that may shock you just a little bit, but I think it gives you much more of a prescriptive path on how to truly go from good is not good enough as a leader. You’ve got to be great, and you have to be extraordinary in order to make an impact. And the biggest metric of making an impact is how your direct reports feel about your leadership. That is such a big key. And so that’s a resource that I would strongly recommend.
[David] It’s so good. It there’s so much out there in material that we can read and there’s, I just can’t recommend enough these books, but the Go-Giver is one of my favorite series. I love the authors and they’re dear friends of mine. And that right ? Yeah, just, yeah. I had a chance to, the reason the Vagrant is a newest book that they have out and I had a chance to write, be a part of writing the foreword in it. So it’s a great book out there. Find good leaders and listeners. I’m just so encouraged you to get a hold and have a conversation with Paul and J.A, it’ll make such a difference. Just having that discovery call. When I first got on a call with them at the recommendation of David Hopper it was just one of those things you go I am so grateful to the Hopper for making this connection. Cause it’s one of those things that is just made such a difference in my life. Paul, J.A, thank you so much for being here. Really grateful.
[J.A] David, we are honored truly. And thank you so much for just loving on us for sure.
[David] We’re all here to serve an industry and this industry is in needing is needing real an upgrade on their leadership because we’re in tougher times, tough for leaders are needed. Thank you guys being here. Appreciate it.
[Paul] Thank you.
[David] Take care.