In this engaging episode of Lykken on Leadership, David Lykken interviews Richard Harris, the CEO of TrustEngine. Richard, a seasoned leader from the tech industry, shares his journey into the mortgage industry through the acquisition of Mortgage Coach and Sales Boomerang by LLR. He discusses the importance of visionary leadership, realistic optimism, and courageous authenticity in navigating challenging market conditions. Richard emphasizes the value of transparency, empathy, and building a strong company culture. He also highlights the significance of mentorship and learning from experienced leaders. The conversation provides valuable insights for leaders seeking to thrive in dynamic and evolving industries.
Richard Harris, CEO of Trust Engine
Rich is a data-driven leader with a passion for building and scaling SaaS companies that leverage data and analytics to optimize performance. Before taking the helm of TrustEngine in 2022, Rich was CEO at SparkPost, an email infrastructure platform which was acquired by MessageBird for $600 million in 2021. Rich was also Group Vice President at Oracle (NYSE: ORCL), where he led international operations for the Oracle Data Cloud. Before that, Rich was CEO at AddThis, a digital ad personalization startup, where he rapidly scaled revenues and orchestrated its acquisition by Oracle. He holds J.D. and MBA degrees from the University of Maryland.
[David] Listeners. I’m really excited to have joining us today. Richard Harris, he is CEO of TrustEngine and someone that is newer to our industry, but certainly a leader in the marketplace. I’m excited about this interview. Richard, welcome to the podcast.
[Richard] Thank you so much for having me, David. I appreciate it.
[David] It’s an honor. And one of the reasons is you’ve been very successful, but in the tech space primarily, and you have been a real leader there and now your leadership skills have found their way to the mortgage industry and specifically The Trust Engine, which is a culmination of an acquisition by LLR. And I should probably have you tell the story so you can do a better job of that than myself. Tell us a little bit about the company and then a little bit of your background. So, tell us about LLR acquiring. So, we get that and then get into you.
[Richard] So, I’ve been in the technology world for a long time, all the way back to 1997. And most of my experience has been in advertising technology and marketing technology. I’ve built multiple companies and had some really nice exits and LLR, which is the private equity firm you just mentioned back to me, actually in my last company, which was actually one of their top performing investments in that fund, which was really great. And they identified an opportunity in mortgage to actually bring leading edge marketing technology to the mortgage industry, because the whole theme was that the mortgage industry was really operating maybe like 20 years behind. What we saw the Facebooks and the Googles of the world doing, which were some of my clients. And the idea is that we could really help the mortgage industry come to the future and start to perform at a much higher level. So that was the thesis and we purchased Mortgage Coach and Sales Boomerang to form the basis of Trust Engine and that’s what really got it started. And I joined in mid-2022 actually just as interest rates started to go through the roof.
[David] Yeah, what a time to join the industry when it seems like for many, they are view of it is it’s imploding, but we’re excited about new leadership coming into the industry and really interested in hearing about your experience, especially your fresh new view of the mortgage industry. But tell us a little bit more about how you got started in tech.
[Richard] Oh, sure. When I was a little kid, I was always really interested in technology. I had a Commodore Vic 24, if you’re familiar with that going way way back, I was on bulletin boards before there was the internet, so always really interested in it. Actually, my father was a judge and he encouraged me to go to law school, which is like not a fit for me. So, I became a lawyer very briefly, but then I decided, forget this, wanted to go into tech and I initially joined a venture capital firm. So that was my first entry into the technology world at the beginning of the Internet bubble, so it was just very good time and crazy time and I got very involved actually at that time with Internet infrastructure, so this would be the communications infrastructure that underpin the build out of the Internet, which was a great place to invest and the first company I actually built was a spin out of a nonprofit research institution focused on the semiconductors that allowed you to do optical switching or fiber optic cables, which was a very successful company that we sold to the JDS uniface and kind of that was the beginning of my tech career.
[David] When you look at technology and the extraordinary growth and transformation of technology in the time that you’ve been there, would you best describe that? and is it required different leaderships as the technology industry has gone through its many metamorphosis?
[Richard] Absolutely. I think when I look at the technology industry and you look at it’s waves, right? So we had in the nineties, the buildup of the internet. You have the email, which was like, that was a game changing thing, which now is a very whole home thing and the Internet changed everything and then there was the Internet bust and kind of everyone said, oh, nothing’s really happening here and then you had a whole another way of Internet 2.0 and then Internet 3.0 Now you’ve got artificial intelligence, right? I’ve been doing artificial intelligence for probably 10, 15 years, and now all of a sudden, artificial intelligence exploding. So, I feel like there’s always waves and there are different leaders that you see that are successful at different stages. The classic startup entrepreneur at the very beginning of a technological revolution today, and you’re seeing this happen by some of these companies that have been started literally only 12-18 months ago that are already worth 1 to 3 billion dollars based on private market valuations. Unbelievable. But it takes a real visionary. Someone who’s very deep technically, to build a company at that stage. But very quickly, a company like that needs to evolve to, okay what’s the strategy? what’s the plan? and how do we execute it? how do we scale? and that’s when you typically bring in a different kind of leader and that’s me, by the way. So I’m not the start from zero visionary to come up with something completely brand new. I typically come in when a company already has a product that’s out in the market. Maybe they’re at least five to ten million in revenue and they really want to scale to a hundred and beyond.
[David] And what a great example when the LLR saw the opportunities and two great companies Sales Boomerang. I look at those guys and what they had a vision of, I had a privilege of advising them early on. I quickly capture what a brilliant idea. Now Mortgage Coach has been around a little bit longer. So bring the two of them together, one has a little more tenure in the industry, but both are very innovative and I think it’s really interesting to see how that is happening. We’re going to focus mostly on leadership and I want to look at that, but as you talk about leadership and you think about leadership, bring what you learned out of the tech world and bring it forward into what you’re learning about the mortgage industry. So, one of the questions I want to go to is how does Richard Harris define leadership?
[Richard] I really look at leadership in a couple different ways. One is, I feel like one of the primary responsibilities of a leader of an organization is to articulate the vision, articulate the strategy of how you’re going to go achieve that vision. What’s the plan? what are the goals? and then to actually motivate the organization to go out, achieve those goals, measure performance. That is one issue that I see is that, you talk to a number of leaders and they may be really good at getting people excited, but then they’re like where are we going? Yeah.
[David] And so, one thing is to generate excitement, but clearly to have a vision of where you’re going you can see that it’s lacking in many of the companies out there. I’m just excited about where we’re going. What are you going? We’re not sure. But that’s one of the things that you bring. It sounds like.
[Richard] I think that’s one really important thing and that’s an area where I really focus my first six months anytime I joined a company, it’s very focused on generating that strategy. So, what’s the vision of the future that we see. So, for example, at Trust Engine, our vision is that all borrowers can achieve financial freedom, right? And then the second piece of it is. What’s the mission? So, what are we going to do to bring that vision into reality? And then what we want to do there is enable lenders to actually become lifelong champions of these borrowers so that they can really help them achieve those goals and then that starts to cascade down into the very specific plans of how we’re going to go achieve that vision and what are the goals that we need to achieve each quarter and there’s a lot of discipline involved in that and a lot of thought that’s required. And once you create that vision, then everyone knows where they’re going, and we can all row together in that same direction. And I find that discipline is often lacking, right? You ask people, okay what are you going to do differently? Say, name your mortgage company. Which is a tough business to differentiate it, right? But if you ask a leader what’s your plan to differentiate? What are you going to do differently to help your customers and be successful. And it’s often difficult to get a clear answer on that.
[David] Yeah, it’s really true. It’s really interesting that we in the mortgage industry right now are going through what feels like a major shift. Is it just another cycle that we’re going through? This one is not like any other cycle we’ve ever gone through, never have at the time of this recording, the MBA just released the statistics for Q4 2023. We’ve never had seven back to back quarters where independent mortgage bankers as a weighted average lost money, that is unprecedented what a time for you to enter our industry, but maybe this is actually a really good time because the game is changing, but you certainly have gone through a number of game changing, what could feel like major shifts as you were talking about internet 2. 0 and 3. 0 and that, the question is in these kinds of dynamic environments where it seems like everything that was is no more and everything that is uncertain moving forward. What is the leadership that you bring to Trust Engine? That is going to make your company successful in this particular new questionable season.
[Richard] Just one comment on the industry. We are starting to see some leading indicators that things are starting to turn. Just talking with some of our customers there, they’re now seeing their first profitable months and many months so to me, that’s super exciting and great leading indicator. So we’ll see what happens but we were pretty optimistic about the future from this point from April, 2024. When I think about leadership and really how do you deal with difficult market conditions, man, a lot of things come up but I guess I would come up with maybe two things that really address that specifically. So, one would be this concept that I really live and breathe called Courageous Authenticity. And so what I mean by courageous authenticity, and this is something that I really practice. Is number 1, being transparent, right? So transparent about what’s really going on out there in the market, talking to your company about that, not being shy and then what’s the impact? What’s going on with your actual company? I find that people want to know and when they don’t have that information, they fill the void with stuff that’s even worse. And so even if the news is not great news, I find that actually can have a calming effect and then at least people know the problems, they know the challenges, and you can craft a plan to go attack those challenges. If you don’t bring these things up and talk about them, how are you ever going to solve the issues? That’s one part of courageous authenticity. The other part of it really is being a little bit vulnerable with your company and with your employees, right? This is not a situation. Particularly in this market, where it’s oh, yeah, we’re having a little bit of tough time, but, things are going to be great. We’re going to be a billion dollar company just in a matter of six months or whatever it is, you’re trying to motivate the troops. I think there’s a real benefit to showing some vulnerability and saying, look, I’m nervous too. Like these are tough. Yeah.
[David] And I think that takes a level of humility to be able to do that when you see the most insecure people, they’re the least humble, they’re the ones that are trying to fake it until they make it kind of thing and there’s a certain element of that in every new startup, but there is humility as a common factor to authenticity. I really love that. Give me some examples of leaders who have really inspired you, Richard?
[Richard] Yeah. Boy there’s so many, when I think about it, I always, if you think about like major figures in history, I always think of Kennedy and how he like pick that goal to go to the moon, and at that time, that was such a big, hairy, audacious goal, like crazy goal. And of course, that’s a very famousone. For me more personally, I had a leader actually at Oracle. When I worked for Oracle, they acquired a company of mine called Add This. And the head of our division was a guy named Eric Rosa, who is still, around today not at Oracle. He’s left, but he is the one that really instilled this concept of courageous authenticity. I always lived it but he is the one that really labeled it and then he practiced it. He really led from the front and he was probably one of the most transparent and straightforward people when it came to him speaking what he really thought another way that manifested wasn’t feedback. So, when he sat down for you with a 1 on 1, he would really tell you how you’re doing. And if you were not performing, you would know and that is a blessing, right? Most people are afraid to talk about, hey, you’re not cutting it and here’s what you need to do better and here’s my suggestion for you. And having that feedback allows you to then perform at an even higher level and I think a lot of leaders are not willing to give authentic feedback to people, which is a challenge.
[David] How much does coaching come involved? Talk about his leadership style. So when he’s pointing out a deficiency or you’re not performing to his expectations, how did he come along then and affect change? and was it coaching? was it you go figure it out or how involved was he in the solution when there was a miss with those that reported to him?
[Richard] Yeah, I think his particular style, and it would be interesting if you listen to this podcast to see if I’m accurate here, but his particular style was to ask tough questions, make some suggestions, but ultimately you’re responsible for figuring this out, and honestly, that is my style as well. I ask a lot of questions. I’m willing to make suggestions, but 1 thing I’m not willing to do is to micromanage you to tell you very specifically, okay, this is what you need to go do because at almost every level of the organization, If you’re hiring someone for a role, they need to have the basics of this is what I need to go do to be proactive and take initiative to improve, and they’ve got to take self responsibility for that.
[David] I think that goes to where in the organization someone’s at. If you’re dealing with a senior executive or someone on the C suite team, they’re being paid probably fairly well, and you do expect them to have the solutions as you go down in the organization more and more and the experience factor may not be as strong there. How would you advise leadership down inside of the organization, not necessarily at that senior level.
[Richard] Yeah. One thing I talk to people about a lot, again, is. I never think kind of micromanagement is the solution here. Giving people suggestions have you tried this or have you thought about doing it this way certainly can be helpful. But I think even people who are more junior, maybe entry level folks, they still want the autonomy. Autonomy is one of the most cherished things for people and one of the most motivating things, right? They want the autonomy to figure it out a little bit themselves. So, you may have a process that you would suggest for how they conduct their job, but they want some ability to be able to say here’s how I think I should do it because I think this is going to be better. This is going to be more efficient. The second piece of it is, I always encourage people at all levels, whether they’re very junior or very senior to ask for help. A lot of people are not willing to ask for help and this to me is so critical to reach out into the organization and it helps promote teamwork and it really can save a ton of time and drive a ton of efficiency because you find out often that by asking for help, you can shortcut stuff and perform at a much higher level very quickly because others have really good input.
[David] Now, when you’re looking for a leader inside of your organization now where you’re at now, or looking back, is there a common theme of what you’re looking for in a leader? It sounds like it’s someone who has the ability to figure it out because you’re basically saying I’ve hired you to figure it out, go figure it out. You’ll be here to support them. But what are the attributes, the characteristics of someone that you have found that has the ability to do, you could go sort it out and figure it out.
[Richard] Yeah, so I definitely look for people that have examples in their career of taking initiative of being proactive and as you just said, or as I just said, go figuring things out. Not just for themselves, but, they may figure it out by going talk to other people or use leveraging other resources. That’s fine. But particularly in a fast moving technology company, we didn’t have the resources in any of these companies that I ran to have big training programs and spending a lot of time teaching people how to do things and then we had to hire people who went off hit the ground running. And that’s critical. When I worked at Oracle, it was different. We had much bigger budgets for training and we could really groom people over a period of time, that is one issue in a fast moving startup company and the other piece, which kind of links right into taking initiative and being proactive, is the love of learning, right? Someone who really desires to learn and it wants to ask very insightful questions, wants to go and read, they’re willing to go and immediately and always look for this. I’ll be talking to someone in a meeting. I’ll make a suggestion, and they’ll immediately bring up search on it and say, oh, is this the article you’re talking about? And they’re like, you can see they’re going to go read that article right away. And so you want someone who is very curious.
[David] And that’s really curious is an important thing. When someone is struggling, what is the best leadership style and how much time do you give? I know if you’re at a burning building, you don’t have a lot of time to let them figure it out because you’ve got a crisis on your hands. But assuming that it’s not a crisis situation, what is a reasonable timeframe for letting them figure it out? And when do you start making the decision that you do need to go search for a new leader in that position?
[Richard] So this is one of the number 1 challenges I’ve seen for most leaders, whether it’s in the technology world or in other areas, and it’s, most leaders are also very empathetic. They want their team to succeed and so they spend a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to get someone to succeed, who clearly is not going to be successful in that role. And so this question that you’re asking, I think is a critical one. I don’t think it has a singular answer, right? Exactly how much time. But I will say this, there’s a period of time and I don’t know if that’s six months or if that’s nine months, but it’s probably not much longer than nine months when they should be fully understanding how you operate. They should have the knowledge to be able to become effective and they should be scaled up and they should have a plan for what they want to do to really make an impact in your organization. And if they don’t have those things in place by then, and it’s clear, they are not adding value and you’ve given them feedback, you’ve given them the opportunity and you’ve given them all the resources that you can think of to try and make them successful, then it is time to try and find them either a different role in your organization, or help them move on to something else. And 1 thing I’ve learned is, in those situations where I’ve helped people say, look, this is not a fit for you, maybe it’s time to move on to another role in a different organization. I’ve often found that they’ve had great success in other organizations in different roles, and part of the reason is probably because whatever they were doing may not have been the right fit for them. Which may be one reason why they weren’t successful. They weren’t excited to come to work every day because it just wasn’t a fit. They didn’t love it. Maybe they didn’t even like it. And so, it’s really hard to be successful when you have that situation and I think you’re often doing people a favor in a sense.
[David] Now that we’re in a dynamic environment, you’ve lived in a dynamic environment coming through the tech space. But what do you think are the biggest challenges facing leaders today, Richard?
[Richard] Ooh, many different challenges out there. One, which I personally face. And I think, again, this is a universal issue is the distributed organization. So Trust Engine, we don’t even have a central office. We have no office. Everyone works from home. We have people all over the United States. We have people in Brazil. We have people in Ukraine. All of the world, so how do you get that team working well together? and of course, one of the secrets for a team working together is that they actually have some affinity for each other. They have developed a relationship right with each other. How do you keep those relationships strong when people don’t see each other in person? And it could be for a long period of time, two years, that sort of thing. And so this is one of the really big challenges I see. Because you don’t have that ability to walk down the hall and have a conversation with someone. And so how do you foster that? I think it’s a huge challenge. I think it also is a challenge for younger folks in their careers. How do they establish the network and really learn when it’s all virtual, then if you’re a hybrid organization where you have some people in the office and some not. Now, you’ve got the haves and the have nots, and that create a whole new set of challenges. To me, and this has been 1 of our number 1 challenges is how do you keep people motivated? How do you keep people excited? How do you retain great employees. In a distributed organization and execute your plan at the same time. I don’t have all the answers we’ve instituted a number of different things that have started to work pretty decently, but it’s still a big challenge.
[David] Interesting question. It’s almost a side note, but do you think the distributed organization is here to stay?
[Richard] I think the ultimate organization structure is really hybrid. I think everyone in the office, the traditional five days a week is not realistic in today’s world. But I also think having, I’m running currently a fully distributed organization. I think it’s not optimal. There is no question, and I can see that we have a disadvantage in some areas because we don’t have that, any in person really. We try and create it, but I think it’s just a challenge.
[David] A zoom call can only go so far or a teams call can only go so far. And there’s something you pick up by with the water cooler or the trip down the hall to use the facilities and that you just, there’s something that. Talks about that mountain. Gladwell did a great job of talking about that. One of the MBA events. He said he learned everything by looking across to one of the reporters that he just admired tremendously and watched his work ethic. It was the nonverbal, sublimable, just sitting in the presence of this iconic reporter and watch him work as he was new as a reporter. It’s an interesting dialogue that we’re all having right now, because there seems to be more and more resistance to come back by many, and yet there is something that does happen where you can lead more effectively. So, I’m always, you have to keep us posted how that’s going for you and any lessons you can share with us on that. What is one of the mistakes or one or two mistakes that you see that leaders are making more today than others? You’ve touched on it a bit, but if you could dive in a little deeper into that, what are a couple of the mistakes that you’re seeing being made?
[Richard] Boy, I think one of them is not staying the course, right? So when you create that strategy. I do see often leaders they react to something that happens in the market or react to something that happens on a more micro scale to their own company, maybe they lose a big customer or something like that, and they change the entire strategy of the company, right? And sometimes in an extreme situation that may be necessary, right? But honestly, most of the time, it’s not, most of the time you may need to make tweaks here and there to it to, of course, adjust and to what’s going on in the market to what’s going on in your own company, but you have to stay the course and you have to have some patience and it’s hard. It takes often a long time to steer the ship and a lot of these companies, even small companies. It’s like a battleship, right? It’s not like you turn on a dime. You turn very slowly over a period of months and the larger you are, the slower you turn. So I would say, particularly in the face of great adversity like this market change that we’ve had in mortgage, to do a massive pivot when you have a good, solid strategy that, is a good, solid strategy, I think it’s often a mistake.
[David] Yeah, that’s true. We’re going to play off the name, the Trust Engine. I think when you look at trusting in a plan, trusting in your people. I love the name when you guys, when Dave Savage, who’s such a dear friend called me and says, here’s the new name, what do you think? and Alex Kutchisin says, did the same thing. They’re calling me about it, and said, Lykken, we want to announce that on your podcast and get it out to the world. So, it was officially made on my podcast. I was very honored by that. I love the word trust and I think that is something that I want to talk about. How do you develop trust, because it is something that derails so many leaders when that trust is eroded so quickly, your company is called Trust Engine. What are the keys to developing trust?
[Richard] That’s a great question, David. I talked a little bit about courageous authenticity and I think being vulnerable and I think some of those aspects are very important in developing trust with folks. There’s another aspect to it, which I think is really important and applies to what’s going on in the market today, and that’s this concept of what I call realistic optimism. And it goes back to authenticity, right? Realistic optimism really comes from the Stockdale paradox. That’s a great one.
[David] And, for those that don’t understand that, explain that in your words, because it’s such an important concept to get understood.
[Richard] So the Stockdale paradox is that this idea that just being optimistic, right and always being super positive and up. Actually, can have the counter effect, can be really negative because people start to perceive you as false, or it’s not credible. And actually, you can motivate people even more if you’re optimistic but you’re also dealing with the brutal reality that you are facing at any given moment. And this is ideal for the mortgage marketer, right? This whole idea of the Stockdale paradox, because over the last, call it 24 months, we’ve dealt with one of the toughest mortgage markets in 30 years, right? And acknowledging that and being real about that and saying, hey, in the short term, we’re going to have to do a layoff or we’re going to have to really change our business to address the reality of what’s going on today. But as a leader of this company, I am telling you, we’ve got a good strategy and long term, I am highly confident will be successful. Will it be in 2 years? Will it be in 3 years? I don’t know exactly, because this market’s pretty tough right now, but we will prevail eventually, which is exactly what Stockdale did as a prisoner of war in the Hanoi Hilton.
[David] It’s an amazing story, and I think more people need to go back and study that because when we start creating, it’s the market’s going to turn around, rates are going to drop on this day. We’re anticipating this happening. You’re setting people up for failure. We don’t know certain things. And I think that going back to authenticity, being vulnerable enough, willing to say, I don’t know, I don’t have that crystal ball to be able to share, but here’s what our plan is and that’s coming back to that confidence and building that trust. I really love it for someone seeking leadership. What would be the thing that you would say to them? That’s wanting to rise and ascend to the leadership roles that you’ve had both in tech and now in mortgage. One of the things that you say are a good path for them to take, to get to that place where you are now.
[Richard] What’s a good path? I think you can ascend to the CEO slot and from many different career paths, right? It often in the technology world, people come up either through tech, like through the CTO side or through the go to market side. But I was actually a CFO at one point. I’ve done all sorts of things and I’ve been an investor and, I’ve taken on lots of different roles. So I don’t know that there’s one path I would say, but I think some of the characteristics that we’ve been talking about today are really what allow you to, move up and move into that role and, I talked a lot about like having the strategy and having the vision and the goals and all that stuff. And we talked about building trust. I think the one other thing is understanding the impact of empathy and culture. And this was a big lesson that I learned earlier in my career. The first time I was CEO, I was very much about the numbers and it’s just all about hitting the rule of 40 and making sure we have the right quantitative goals and pushing the organization and I had a great chief people officer at that time, and she really is the one that opened my eyes to the power of culture and the power of listening to people and understanding people and what really motivates them, what do they actually care about? And the power of building a great culture that supports what they’re interested in and makes them feel like they’re part of something. That’s more than just about hitting a particular number and I think building that culture and fostering that culture is another really important aspect.
[David] Yeah, it is. I think it’s outstanding. What are some resources that you’d recommend people? Some, men finding a good mentor. You’re so fortunate to have had a good mentor early on in your career. And I’m sure there’s been numerous ones along the way, but beyond finding just a good mentor, what are books, any courses that you recommend that someone who is seeking a leader, a role of becoming a future leader. What would you recommend?
[Richard] Yeah. I’m going to give you an answer that’s maybe a little bit different, and that is, I’m not a fan of business books. People give me business books all the time. I try and read them, and I get halfway through and I just, I can never, I don’t know why that, yeah, I, they just don’t resonate with me. What really has helped me is talking to other leaders that have been there and done it before. There’s just no question. When I became CEO at this, I was very fortunate to have some former really strong leaders on my board. One of those was a guy named Ted Leonsis, who currently owns the Washington Wizards and Capitals and runs monumental sports and he was the president of AOL and really successful guy. And he’s an example of someone that sat down with them and had lunch with them and picked his brain on, how do you do this? How do you do this CEO thing? What worked for you and what didn’t and what was important and how did you spend your time and how did you spend your day because it can be lonely at the top. And I think getting some of these things out of a book can be challenging, but when you talk to people, you get the real story.
[David] You get the rest of the story, which is great segue as we wrap up this interview, because that’s what this podcast is about Lykken on Leadership. We’re just collecting all these stories for people to listen to for generations to come and I hope this website and these stories and these recordings will outlive me by a good amount, because there’s so much that you’ve shared in this interview that I think is noteworthy. It’s something that should everyone is seeking to be a leader needs to listen to and like you said, there’s many journeys to the leadership role in a company. It’s take advantage of the ones that you have there, but most importantly, get mentoring, get out and talk to leaders that have been there. I want to say thank you so much, Richard, for taking time to be here as one of the first non mortgage people that we’ve had who’s now in the mortgage industry, but we’re really grateful for you coming on and sharing that. For those that want to reach out to you and connect with you and learn more and possibly have that conversation you just talked about. What’s the best way for people to connect with you?
[Richard] Send me an email, rich@trustengine.com.
[David] Also we’ll put his LinkedIn profile link in the show notes. It’s another great way for people to reach out. Richard, thank you so much for being here. Wish you continued success in this crazy market. And you guys are doing really well and I can see why there’s hope and why LLR hired you. So kudos to them and looking forward to seeing you at the top. Thank you so much.
[Richard] Thank you for giving me the opportunity. I appreciate it. Looking forward to doing this again with you.
[David] I am too. Thank you.